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COMMENT(S): World's Grade 2 result reportedly under appeal
Published: September 06, 2012
Author: kiegelmann | (report inappropriate content) |
| FredFomm - I can see where you are coming from however you have to take this into consideration. These top level bands dedicate hundreds of hours practicing for this one competiton. These bands work hard for sponsorship and put thousands of their own funds towards the trip overseas. Sure these players are doing this for fun, however they are playing to win. This isn't a non sactioned games where "Friendship Trophies" are awarded for participation. This is the WORLD CHAMPIONSHPS. The highest level of judging is expected. These bands have 364 days to perfect their set and make sure everything is right. PM called it in too slow, tough luck! |
Published: September 06, 2012
Author: FredFomm | (report inappropriate content) |
| I stopped taking these rules seriously in 2010, after the band in which I was the P/S got a third place in a given competition. No sore losing here - members from both the winning band and runners up said they were surprised by the placements as our tone, balance, tempo etc was way higher. What I did was, after the announcements I politely questioned the adjudicator. He said merely, "It's a number's game", hinting to the fact that one of those bands had fourteen pipers. The minimum requirements for that competition? Five pipers. We had eight. They had early E's [two!]. They got first [or second? not sure]. We got third. These rules are fairy tales. Play it for the fun and compete knowing it, at your own risk of feeling let down. |
Published: September 05, 2012
Author: BagpipeCalum | (report inappropriate content) |
| Do you guys know 78th Fraser's medley also run over time in 2010 (you can check the CD, their time was 7:11). However, RSPBA also didn't have action on that time and no one mentioned it... Maybe it is because the competition was Bill's last time as a PM of 78th on the field. |
Published: September 05, 2012
Author: kiegelmann | (report inappropriate content) |
| It is a rule. These rules are put in place for bands to follow. At this level of playing it is unacceptable for this so-called minor mistake. Bands practice and time their sets and they took the risk. It is unfortunate however they should be disqualified if you ask me. If you bend the rules here then what does that say for the rest of the rules in place? |
Published: September 05, 2012
Author: Tomasetti | (report inappropriate content) |
| As pipe major of Portland Metro, on behalf of the band I would like to thank people for their support and sympathy. Although we were disappointed with not making the Grade 2 final, we prefer to make the final based on our playing ability, and not based on a technicality. Although we are not a part of this appeal process, we respect the rights of bands wishing to voice their concerns. We will use this experience to help fuel our drive towards our return to the Worlds in 2014. Thanks!
Mark Tomasetti |
Published: September 03, 2012
Author: bikeboy613 | (report inappropriate content) |
| Agree with PMT also ... were there any repercussions for the 78th Fraser's medley being over by 8-10s in 2010?? If no action in that case why this one?? |
Published: September 03, 2012
Author: Lugnuts | (report inappropriate content) |
| Seems like the R.S.PB.A could do themselves a favour and say eaxctly what happened instead of staying quiet. Just tell the world why you made the decision you did and then move along. Sheesh. Why is that so hard??? Are these rules to follow or are they not?? Should bands feel free to add 5 or 10 seconds to their medley's now or not??? |
Published: September 03, 2012
Author: summerdrummer | (report inappropriate content) |
| Rules are rules and I appreciate that. However, Portland weren't the only ones to spent a lot of money so did Brieg, the decision was probably the wrong one in hindsight, but I can see why it was done, they're a few seconds over, they've spent a lot of money to come and the decision was taken at the ring not to DQ them. I am sure if the decision was taken after compiling and not after the performance the outcome may have been different, and I'm absolutely positive if the band had placed last we wouldn't be having this debate. Once again there's an element of RSPBA bashing, I'd love to see some of the other organisations run a championship with over 230 bands and over 300 performances in a single day and get every single call exactly correct, the reality is no other organisation knows what it's like to run that event. Portland can feel hard done by, if their drum corps had been better than 3rd last they wouldn't have been relying on someone else, and I read on here someone thinks they should get an automatic pass into the next Worlds Final, seriously!!!!! OK as I said, I can see why the person made the call the did AT THE RING after the performance, he or she are surely now wishing they hadn't made that call, yes rules are rules but common sense should also prevail, I think in this occasion it has backfired badly. Imagine if it were your band running a few seconds over, you'd want common sense to prevail and if the RSPBA DQ'd your band then there would be outcry also. They really can't win, but by all means if you feel you can do a better job then step up. |
Published: September 03, 2012
Author: robbiem | (report inappropriate content) |
| Would a rule 'within the spirit of the rules' help. This would allow some leeway for issues like this where the 'breech' is not serious. Or would it simply confuse matters and allow the judges and officials to be be berated for using their initiative and allowing some latitude? Just wondering! |
Published: September 03, 2012
Author: templeofsound | (report inappropriate content) |
| ToneCzar sums up this situation in a nutshell. Sure this can be debated based on "Its only a couple of seconds and they've travelled a long way...".....but why would any band "plan out" a selection that put them so close to either a min or max. Any band I've been in, in any grade, considers timing before the medley is finalised....and then if changes are made during the year, timing is considered for those changes.
This is a no brainer. |
Published: September 02, 2012
Author: Doc | (report inappropriate content) |
| How would this be handled in other PBA's around the World?
As a retired/former member of WUSPBA's Music Board and frequently the WUSPBA's representative at various games, this would automatically DQ the band, no different then being late to the line, or performing with an inadequate number of band members.
Doc |
Published: September 02, 2012
Author: ToneCzar | (report inappropriate content) |
| The 4-to-6 minute medley requirement for Grade 2 is well-known and has not changed in many years. I'm puzzled as to why Brieg would have constructed a medley that flirted so dangerously close to the time limit, where a slight variation in the tempo of one or two tunes could put them over-time.
Generally, if there's a 2-minute window between minimum and maximum times, it's best to go solidly in the center of that ... about 4 minutes for Grade 3, 5 minutes for Grade 2, 6 minutes for Grade 1. |
Published: September 02, 2012
Author: PipesReady | (report inappropriate content) |
| The reasonable thing on the day would have been to allow Brieg through, and make a7 band final that also included Portland. As really, they were the only band that would have had a legitimate complaint with Brieg's advancement.
I thought of this solution 2 mins after reading the article.....hmmmm...maybe a future for me a an RSPBA arbitrator. ;) |
Published: September 02, 2012
Author: piperjde | (report inappropriate content) |
| This is so simple it hurts! Bands take a huge risk already by spending the time and money to come over and MAYBE qualify. It's a risk most are willing to take. But to go over and not be sure if the RSPBA is going to follow their own rules or not should not be a risk that any band has to face. Portland is the ultimate loser. Bagad Brieg find themselves in a tough spot of giving up a well deserved placing, although they shouldn't have been allowed the opportunity to correct what happened earlier. Don't allow this group of people to judge majors next year. |
Published: September 02, 2012
Author: mailman | (report inappropriate content) |
| As has already been mentioned , the timing issue was in regard to their qualifying performance, therefore the fact they were allowed to play in the final means the result ought to stand . Performance wise the placing they received in the final was deserved and there was not an issue with timing then . Difficult to believe that four bands would appeal , it would be a rather hollow victory for them were they to be successful and moved up in the final positions . Yes there were mistakes , by both Brieg and the RSPBA , but it's too late now , learn the lesson and move on . |
Published: September 02, 2012
Author: uilleannonlooker | (report inappropriate content) |
| On first appearance it seems that the RSPBA showed good judgement and common sense on the day, however if they have indeed dq'd bands in the past for running over the time, then they should have upheld their rules and enforced the dq. it is all about consistency, and if it took a high profile dq at the words to point this out then so be it. As others have said here, the band created the medley, not the RSPBA, so it is up to them to ensure the length of it. Portland have every right to be upset, and perhaps the band that came 7th in the final (as to not make the top 6 obviously).
I think the horse has bolted on this one though, again what overall good will it do any band at this stage, unless a band missed out on points for champions of champions or something like that, its hardly worth doing.
For sure portland should be compensated at the very least by being allowed to go straight to the final next year if they show up, BUT that would mean the RSPBA admitting they got it wrong, so don't hold your breath Portland.
(and Robin, do you actually talk in person like that? or are highland pipes not the only type of pipes you put in your mouth?, for recreationional purposes say) |
Published: September 02, 2012
Author: PipeCorp | (report inappropriate content) |
| Assessment and judging standards are much higher and are far more objective in American Drum and Bugle Corps. DCI World Championships require assessment by 10 (ten) judges. Perhaps the four (4) judges determining the "World Championships" of pipe bands are inadequate for the occasion. As a qualified judge must only 'rank' a pipe band, there are obviously no objective standards that determine the standard of a band's play. A false start or overtime performance have no bearing on the "score" unless the judge decides to legislate demotion in a placing, that is, of course, if the judge attempted to objectively assess the pipe band on the field.
Good on the best pipe band of the day; shame on the judges' inability to perceive a medley lasting longer than the allotted time. What else do you think they could have possibly missed other than that of one (1) of the only prescribed requirements of the competitive format? |
Published: September 02, 2012
Author: PMT | (report inappropriate content) |
| Over playing the allocated time is usually a very minor point deduction and does not often effect places too much. As this occurred in a qualifier, I doubt it would not have affected the band going through especially when the breech is so minor. |
Published: September 01, 2012
Author: celtrick | (report inappropriate content) |
| RSPBA should never have allowed this to happen. You can't have a rule book, but only enforce some rules. Bands come from all over the world, and they are responsible for their performance in the circle. Bagad Brieg played well, and played their set enough times to know how close to the 6 minute mark they were.
"Bagad Brieg were allegedly told by RSPBA officials after the qualifier that they had exceeded the six-minute maximum by six seconds, but it was decided to let the results be tallied and then deal with it later."
So when is the time to deal with it? RSPBA officials allegedly informed them, allowed them through, they played the same medley "slighty faster", and came in under the 6 minute mark.
Unfair advantage? Other bands competed without any such consideration.
Portland Metro were denied an opportunity to play in the finals.
I am not trying to slag Bagad Brieg, but they were in control of the set they played at the 2012 World Pipe Band Championships.
R MacDonald |
Published: September 01, 2012
Author: Doc | (report inappropriate content) |
| There are many aspects of pipe band competition that are purely subjective....then there are those items that are purely objective and measurable.....like the TIMED medley. We can debate penalties for early E's, etc. but the performance is timed and a requirement of the competition. If the band flunks the precision part...the RSPBA rules say they shouldn't even get to the musical part. If the RSPBA wants improv they should call it improv and change the rules of competition. Bagad Brieg played splendidly, but I feel poorly for Portland Metro. Lots of practice, lots of travel and lots of $$$$. They deserved a level playing field.
Doc |
Published: September 01, 2012
Author: ChrisD | (report inappropriate content) |
| Why have a time limit if you're not going to enforce it? One Grade 2 band dropped the second part of its first reel on the Wednesday prior, the sole purpose of which was to ensure it was under 6:00. As for the penalty, RSPBA rule 4.34 states "Any Band or Individual playing under or over the agreed grade or event time will be disqualified," though this appears in the section governing bands "playing up" at minor contests. Though it doesn't appear to apply to Championships, one has to wonder why time limits would be so critical at games in the middle of nowhere but not on Glasgow Green in August. |
Published: September 01, 2012
Author: Lawrie | (report inappropriate content) |
| In competition, just how do you police the timing of a performance....? Maybe we have a countdown on the big screen, turning the whole thing into a reality-tv sort of mockery...? Just imagine it - Pipe Majors leaping into panic and making the band play faster in the last tune in order to finish on time...? The whole scenario is ridiculous and anti-music. It is as pointless as the whinging. The best band on the day won. As per usual, some others can't deal with it. |
Published: September 01, 2012
Author: radplaid | (report inappropriate content) |
| RSPBA is at fault here, BIG TIME. I'm not sure how it can be made right at this point, but why not let Portland automatically qualify for the final next year? |
Published: September 01, 2012
Author: MCPBKIT | (report inappropriate content) |
| The Breig bands result should stand. Their performance in the final merited the result they achieved. They were fully compliant with the rules in the final.
Any band who may subsequently have a higher prize as a consequence of a successful appeal , for example Denny drum corps , cannot truly believe they were judged best in the final.
The only band who may feel aggrieved is the band from the qualifier who did not qualify, however disqualifying Breig at this stage can in no way make them feel any better.
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Published: September 01, 2012
Author: che2 | (report inappropriate content) |
| i have watched the bickering about this on the other forums, evidently from members of other bands in about the prizes. rules are rules i suppose, but i think this is one which should be retired, particularly as they are probably at more of a disadvantage by playing for longer. fair enough if you dont play long enough i can see that being an unfair advantage and should be strictly imposed, but the upper limits should be a guideline only. i think common sense should prevail here, i sincerely hope this doesnt go any further. |
Published: September 01, 2012
Author: madmac | (report inappropriate content) |
| This is simply "ERROGANCE" on the part of the RSPBA. To have a band pay thousands of dollars and to expect this ''Worlds'' to be run on a professional level is paramount to their existance - both band and Society. I have seen gr 2 bands thown off the list for not playing for the drum majors.
If the RSPBA cannot read and enforce their own rules then what's next,,, competitors expecting results that match performances - WOW what a concept. That would simply be beyond '' a predictable shafting''.
No name here - this is simply a reflection of those that teach / play / compete. I leave the rest to those that don't. |
Published: August 31, 2012
Author: brucegpiper | (report inappropriate content) |
| playing with one less piper than the minimum, is a major difference compared to playing 6 seconds longer in a medley event. I get that the timing is important but would you really feel good getting moved up a place because a band played 6 seconds too long??? The only band I can see with a potential issue would be Portland Metro, as they were denied a chance to play the final. this is the RSPBA's fault, not the bands fault. If the rules officials knew something was incorrect and they let it go, then they should be punished, not the band that sorted the issue and played just fine in the final.
Bruce | |
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