Part 4 of the Drum Corps Conundrum: four drumming greats discuss the ongoing battle to recruit snare drummers and L-Ds

We continue with the fourth of pipes|drums’ four-part discussion panel with four of the world’s most accomplished pipe band drummers: Scott Armit of Boston; Ottawa’s Kahlil Cappuccino; Paul Turner of Blairgowrie, Scotland; and Barry Wilson of Troon, Scotland.

• The Drum Corps Conundrum: Four drumming greats discuss the ongoing battle to recruit snare drummers and L-Ds – Part 1
• The Drum Corps Conundrum, Part 2: Four drumming greats discuss the ongoing battle to recruit snare drummers and L-Ds
• The Drum Corps Conundrum, Part 3: Four drumming greats discuss the ongoing battle to recruit snare drummers and L-Ds

The shortage of snare drummers and leading-drummers is pretty much a pipe band tradition. But why? Throughout the hundred-year history of competing pipe bands, pipers and drummers have wondered why the perpetual lack exists, but has anyone ever seriously sought answers?

That’s where pipes|drums steps in. By creating a forum for constructive dialogue with four of the most insightful and experienced pipe band drummers, each with different backgrounds and nationalities, yet all with unbeatable “street cred,” our sole objective is to begin a more constructive, productive search for ideas and answers. 

Below is a transcript of Part 4, with minor edits for written clarity.

Part 4

Kahlil Cappuccino: Is that quick jump up leading to, say, drum corps that are maybe perhaps a bit bloated, that don’t need to be the 10, 11, 12, 13? And what I’m thinking and what I’m hearing is that it might serve better to have a more incremental, progressive lead-up to that, or a greater diversity of bands at a higher level for people to play in.

Scott Armit: Yeah. I wrote an article about the numbers cap, not too long ago. I know it’s contentious, but I’m a firm believer in it. There’s no evidence to claim that if you had a numbers cap in Grade 1 bands, that would suddenly lead to all these new lead-drummers. I’m not going to name names, but I know a couple of people from just this off-season who were offered lead-drummer jobs in good bands, but because those bands aren’t quite at the level to win the Worlds or get in the top six, they said no, and they’ve gone to be the fourteenth or the thirteenth in one of those corps. I know for a fact that if they were told, No, sorry, we’ve hit the cap, they would have to make another decision. Whether that would be, Okay, I’ll be your lead-drummer, or band X that needs a lead-drummer, I don’t know for sure, but it certainly seems common sense and logical to me that they would. They would at least try.

Barry Wilson: I don’t think I entirely agree with you, Scott. On paper, capping would seem to be the perfect solution. But for the reasons you’ve said, I don’t think it would be the perfect solution because there are people who want to be part of that band, and if they can’t be part of that band, they’d rather just not bother. You go back years ago, and we won majors with Shotts with five snare drummers, and maybe three tenors and a bass, and that was it.

What I noticed was that when you had the influx of upwards of 30 pipers, and we played with something like 12 or 13 snares in the Spirit of Scotland in 2016. I just felt it was too much. It’s too much to manage, in my view, not just from a personnel perspective, but also from the instruments themselves, to get 13 drums all going at the right time. The bass sections were bigger than the snare sections were back in the 1990s. I’ve noticed that the bands, the pipe corps anyway, seemed to be dropping back down to 18, 20 pipers again, which, back in the day, was a big band. But the drum corps doesn’t seem to have the same correlation to come back down for some reason.

Scott Armit: The other thing, and I’m not trying to take any knocks at any of the great corps of today, Barry, you guys at Shotts when you had that six . . . I mean, nothing sounds better to me today than I’ve heard since then. There are some great corps, but it was so clean and so dynamic at the same time. To me, there seems to be a lot; for me, it’s about nine. If I get over it at nine, I can’t hear anymore. I don’t know what’s going on.

When I’m leading at seven, I can pick out that was the wrong hand on your flam. You know, I’ve got to that point, and a lot of lead-drummers get there. But when you get past nine or 10, I can’t hear it anymore. And  I hear that even in Grade 1. It’s great, but it’s ensemble-based, right? It’s a little muddy all the time. There’s not the clarity I used to love from you guys, other corps, and the Vic Police corps.

I’ve missed that. Seven to nine, you could really hear the detail and all the rest of it. And the ensemble was there too. But now everyone will hate me for saying that!

“The lead stepped out, and he turned around, and he basically said, I don’t need all of you. So, pick it up, right? And I remember thinking to myself, What’s the point of having all of them?” – Kahlil Cappuccino

Barry Wilson: You’re right, though, when you had five or six playing, you had to have five or six playing. There was nowhere to hide. Whereas you have 12 or 13, you could have two or three ticklers in there. All they’re doing is bolstering the numbers; they’re not actually adding to the sound.

Scott Armit: That’s right.

Kahlil Cappuccino: It’s interesting. I was watching a drum corps play. I won’t say where or which, but there were about 14 of them, and it wasn’t going well. And so, the lead stepped out, and he turned around, and he basically said, I don’t need all of you. So, pick it up, right? And I remember thinking to myself, What’s the point of having all of them? And then just the sheer numbers. Barry, you picked up on it. The people management side of things is now you’ve got 10 direct reports instead of five or six. And I guess in all of your experiences with the size of drum corps, what was it like? What did you find most challenging based on the numbers you had?

“In my last year at ScottishPower . . . I cut my numbers back because I was just like, I don’t need to be playing 11, 12 guys. I cut it back to eight or nine, I can’t remember the exact number, and I let a couple of guys go, and good guys, but did I really need them? Possibly not.” – Barry Wilson

Barry Wilson: In my last year at ScottishPower, it didn’t go down well with some individuals, but I cut my numbers back because I was just like, I don’t need to be playing 11, 12 guys. I cut it back to eight or nine, I can’t remember the exact number, and I let a couple of guys go, and good guys, but did I really need them? Possibly not.

It’s maybe very harsh to say something like that, but that year I knew was leaving. We were very transparent in that, and I was like, You know what? I’m going to try it. If it works, it works. If it doesn’t, well, you’re not going to do it now after 11 years in the job. You know what I mean?

I was quite harsh in that last year, and it did put a few noses out of joint, and I get that. But it was a throw of the dice for me, and we came close enough, but no cigar, unfortunately.

Scott Armit: I’ll go the other way. I already said the part about getting over seven to nine, that it gets difficult to hear, and be the manager of humans. But from where I am, we go the other way. We had difficulty when the Stuart Highlanders got to the top of Grade 2, and then up into Grade 1. I knew I needed to have nine to 10. As Barry said, I probably had three in there that I would have cut. But I knew walking out with six or seven at that time, I wouldn’t get a fair listening.

As I said before, I don’t blame the judges for that. You’re asking a judge, Here comes six and then here comes 13. And the judge says, They’re pretty close. Well, who’s going to get the nod? I’m just going the other way.

“One of the biggest challenges we have in the States is putting out enough people at a high level to match those numbers, which again probably is why I’m in such favour of a cap. We could actually have a competitive Grade 1 band from this area if I could go to the Worlds with seven and get a fair shake.” – Scott Armit

One of the biggest challenges we have in the States is putting out enough people at a high level to match those numbers, which, again, is probably why I’m in such favour of a cap. We could actually have a competitive Grade 1 band from this area if I could go to the Worlds with seven and get a fair shake. I could put out a Grade 1 corps. But knowing I need 12, it’s not available to us.

Barry Wilson: I blame the judges!

Scott Armit: Always! [Laughter]

Paul Turner: Easy saying when you’re not playing at the minute, Barry!

The people are looking from outside the arena in, and the optics are “the bigger, the better.” But when you’re in the arena, and it’s the same with piping judges, that is not the case, I can assure you. And certainly, from an adjudication side, the way the adjudication training has gone in the last 10 years, certainly since I’ve been a member of APMB [the RSPBA’s Adjudicator Panel Management Board], I’ve been there to see it.

“If you look at the adjudicators who are now members of the panel, it’s like a who’s who of leading-drummers and pipe-majors of the last 10 years. And I have never heard one of them say, ‘They won it because they’re 13.’ No, they’d won it because they were good. I’ve judged Grade 1 and Grade 2 a lot over the last number of years. And the best are the ones with clarity and dynamics and playing to the front end.” – Paul Turner

If you look at the adjudicators who are now members of the panel, it’s like a who’s who of leading-drummers and pipe-majors of the last 10 years. And I have never heard one of them say, They won it because they’re 13. No, they’d won it because they were good. I’ve judged Grade 1 and Grade 2 a lot over the last number of years. And the best are the ones with clarity and dynamics and playing to the front end. Whether it’s seven, eight, nine . . .

Some of those who struggle are really at the top of their game. But because they’ve got that 13th and 14th player, it becomes cloudy and they lose that delivery. The biggest I ever played, I think, was 11. And it was at a local competition to give a new drummer a chance because we’d played 10 all year. And it’s probably the worst experience I had in my life in an arena because I could see the hands moving and the two flank players, but I couldn’t hear anything. I knew them because they were two of my key players, so it would be fine. But I needed them to close off that flank. And then I had to ask them after we’d finished, Was that okay? It sounded brilliant in the middle, but I’m not sure about the two flanks. I didn’t enjoy that experience.

I always said after that, 10 maximum, preferably nine, because then I can hear everybody.

So, you have that, and it’s also the management. Never mind managing a practice or the instruments, as Barry alluded to, but I don’t see how you can manage a corps of 13, 14 fully in the arena. There’ll be guys who can do it; I just couldn’t personally. But then you take the other side, you’ve got bass sections that are now bigger than the whole corps that we grew up in.

I had a pipe-major with whom I’ve had a long-standing friendship for many years, and I approached him about bringing in a fifth tenor drummer, because I had a really talented player who wanted to come play with us. He said to me, That’s five tones, plus the bass is six tones. You’re not getting any more. And I went, Well, why is that? He says there are only nine notes on the chanter, and you can’t match them all. And I went, Valid point. So, you’re getting people doubling up on tones. Visually, it looks very good. Tonally, it can get a bit mushy at times.

Scott Armit: That’s a very valid point.

Kahlil Cappuccino: Yeah, and the ability to match the tones properly. Try to listen for the drums that are supposed to be tuned to D, and you’ll hear a lot of sort of bullfroggy sounds going on.

Listen, I’ve enjoyed this, learned so much from it, and value it. Can we end with a really quick one from each of you? What would be the best piece of motivating advice you could give to somebody who might be entertaining the idea of being a lead-tip, or for the next generation of lead-tips? Just quickly, each one of you, and then we’ll wrap it.

Scott Armit: My big motivation is I’m going to call everyone and say, Paul Turner says we can win with seven! We’re going to Grade 1! [laughter]

Kahlil Cappuccino: But it’s heartening to hear that, Paul, it’s good to hear that.

Scott Armit: No, but my quick one is, just don’t be afraid of it. Give it a try. Too many guys are afraid of it. They think it’s too much. It is a lot, but they should give it a go. And try it at the lower level. You don’t have to jump into Grade 1. Take a Grade 4 corps, even if you’re a Grade 1 player. They’d love to have you. Some of these guys who want to be a lead-drummer, go do it in Grade 4, Grade 3, and work your way up. That’s it for me.

Kahlil Cappuccino: Thanks. Barry?

Barry Wilson: Delegation. One of my pearls of wisdom is, don’t take everything on your shoulders on your own. You are the figurehead, but if you can delegate – the tuning, or other aspects of what is part of your role with a couple of good corps pros in your drum corps, then it doesn’t have to be the pressure situation that it can often be if you’ve got a couple of guys in there who can lighten the load.

Kahlil Cappuccino: Great, and Paul?

Paul Turner: Both Scott and Barry have covered a lot of what I would recommend. The big thing for anybody to become a leading-drummer: just because you played in Grade 1 doesn’t mean you have to take a Grade 1 band. Take a Grade 2 band. First and foremost, don’t take the first offer that you get. Go investigate the band. Investigate the music. Is that music that you’re going to enjoy? You have to remember this is a hobby and you’re supposed to enjoy it, and that means it makes all the practice and all the heartache over the season so much easier if you actually are aiming to enjoy the finished product.

The delegation thing: definitely, you need to delegate right across. Have somebody responsible to you for the bass section. None of this senior tenor drummer or this and that. No, you’re responsible to me. End of [story].

The other thing is, which hurts a lot of people in certain bands, you’ll have a pipe-major and a leading-drummer with a vision. And for whatever reason the members of the band committee [the non-playing management group] don’t match that expectation and you end up with the band going really well, striving to do something, and in the background there’s a destructive influence, whether it’s coming from their lack of knowledge or it’s just, Well, we don’t share your vision. All these things have got the line to make perfect music.

Kahlil Cappuccino: Great, thanks. So just to encapsulate: Have courage. Use delegation. Rely on your networks. Strive for excellence. Understand the environment you’re in or what you might be going into. And, above all, when you’re going for that excellence, have fun with it. Don’t forget that it’s meant to be fun.

Thanks so much, gentlemen.

Paul Turner: Fun. Fun’s the big thing.

All: Thank you.

Our thanks to Scott Armit, Kahlil Cappuccino, Paul Turner, and Barry Wilson for their time and work, contributing their expert, experience-based thoughts on these important topics.

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